Rite of Spirit Brew

The Rite of Spirit Brew is becoming fairly widespread, so I'd like to put it on the table and see what people think.

As written, there's really no restriction on how many Spirit Brews can be turned out per month. Personally, I've been restricting myself to one per month, but there's no hard and fast rule. I think we should probably see if we can come to an agreement on a reasonable restriction.

Here are some thoughts for possibilities:

1. Treat Spirit Brews like Talens--create one at no cost, spend a Gnosis for each one after that, up to your permanent Gnosis rating.
2. Put an expiration date on Spirit Brews..say, two months. Let's be honest, eight-month-old water is going to be pretty stale, Gnosis-infused or no.
3. Just have a hard cap of 1 or 2 Brews per month.

Thoughts? It's a nice, useful Rite, but I think everyone can agree that absolutely unlimited amounts of Gnosis is a problem. Even at one per month, Wishbone has been able to stockpile a crapload of Gnosis; at the raising of the caern, he was prepared to pay almost the entire cost himself.

I'm personally a fan of no more than one per month.

Also people should keep in mind that Gnosis doesn't just spontaneously come into being. There's a reason mages can tap a Caern dry, that wouldn't be possible if it was unlimited.

Mages don't perform the Moot Rite. The Caern stops being a Caern if the Moot Rite is not performed at least once per month. The Moot Rite recharges the Caern with Gnosis. The Rite itself, plus 5 temporary Gnosis spent by participants, heals the Caern. Especially useful if a mage is trying to tap that, or you have 100 Spirit Brews floating around, or you had to Open the Caern more than once this season, etc.

I'd suggest that overusing the Spirit Brew, like overusing Fetishes and even Talens, should just have in character consequences. If Wishbone has 100 Gnosis in Spirit Brew, and there's not a super good reason for it, there's a punishment. If the reason he gives is "I don't want a bunch of Garou to die when I could just be prepared with a Caern-level worth of Gnosis infused into water when we build a Caern here", that's a damn good answer.

I am getting this ritual now. As a healer I seem to always need Gnosis. Whatever the accepted rule will be, we don't want it unlimited. I will keep it to one a month. Doesn't 1 Spirit Brew hold 3 Gnosis? I am trying to remember back to table top.

Yeah, 3 Gnosis. And both Matt and Skippy have good points--even at one a month, excessive hoarding without good reason should have consequences. That part can be addressed IC.

If I start getting an excess of over 2 months or so I can just feed it back to a spirit in the Caren I assume. So it does not "stale" and waste it

*evil chuckle*
Well Back when I had a character who had it I limited myself to once a month, I also assumed I had to have three Gnosis of my own to do the ritual ??? I had the Ritual for months and I only performed it when at the End of a Session I had 3 unused Gnosis to spare.... I never had more then two in my possession accept at the Caern Building When I had 4.

I agree 1 per session should be the limit and yea trying to build a powerful Caern is a damned good reason, but I have also used it to help awake spirits, pay toll to the Nasty Weaver Spiders on the Rainbow Bridge stuff like that.
Oh and next time I play an Uktena remind to me play a Lupus because lordy all those gifts that require a Gnosis expenditure

The 12 XP you need to jump from 1 to 5 Gnosis is a massive stall out in most formats, as an Uktena Homid. In this format though...it's not such a huge issue.

It sounds like there's a general consensus for a cap of 1 per month. Skippy has a good point about overusing it having in-character consequences, and it should--but what's "overuse?" Different players and different STs are going to have different opinions. One might think in one month is fine, while another might say, "You've made a Spirit Brew every month for five months, that's too much!" At the least, I'd like to see a firm guideline for what's appropriate, if not an outright cap.

I can appreciate and to a great degree share a desire for a firm guideline or set cap- it might be something that is flexible within the game world . . . spirits, garou, tribes, etc all could (and would seem to) have different ideas of what specific point is "too much" for any given activity, characteristic, etc. So- while I would enjoy a set number allowed, I can see a reason to leave it flexible based on the character/spirits who are aware and involved.

I assert that there is no right answer for an individual PC, because doing that much damage to a Caern would require multiple PCs performing the rite too often, rather than one or a few. This is a level 5 Caern of Gnosis, a literal conduit to the spiritual energy of Gaia and the planet and the history of every living creature and natural force. It's not going to tap out easily, and damage done via Spirit Brew would need to build up over months and be sustained by dozens of Garou continually doing the rite. Moreover, things we as characters do can offset the damage. Every time we clean up the area, drive off banes, invite Gaian spirits to stay, assist the Wraiths that live here, perform rituals like the Moot Rite, etc., we refill the Caern. The STs can easily track the rite's use over time (more easily than tracking an individual's use of it) and if enough Garou damage control hasn't been performed, someone's going to speak up or notice the issue, be it a spirit or Theurge or totem. If your worry is IC as well as OOC, there are ample ways to control ritual use, some of which you're already doing, and other people may pay attention if you say a few words.

I will say there are GOOD reasons to create 40-50 spirit brews. Trips between planets for example.

Keep any limit on them IN character, and leave how many a person can create to ST Fiat based on how they're acquiring the gnosis.