!!WEREWOLFFALLING WATERS QUESTIONS THREAD!!

[Stbrian]

Please post here any questions you have about Werewolf Genre, Falling Waters in particular, or just any general questions about OWBN or anything game related at all!

QUESTIONS!


Can you define "caern" as well as its parts?

It's important to note when we refer to 'Caerns' in general is that Caerns actually are all quite different. Very rare are two exactly the same. I'm going to talk about the parts of a Caern that are absolutely required, and discussion of the optional bits comes down to an IC issue. I'm also not going to go into a lot of detail, again, that's best left for IC.

Looking abstractly, I tend to visualize a Caern best as a singularity in the fabric of the Gauntlet. At the Heart of a Caern, the Gauntlet drops to 0 and the Real World and the Near Umbra become one. There is no stepping sideways in the Heart, because there is nothing to step sideways into. At the Heart, reality is unified in the way that it was before the Weaver tore reality in half.

This means a few things, most of which are intuitive when you think about it. Again, best to be left for IC discussions. But it's best to say that reality is a bit wonky around the Heart. And the limit of that wonkiness is the region referred to as the Bawn. The Bawn is the area where the Gauntlet is lower, and the worlds are still very close. Reality is a bit off here too. A rank one Caern has a Bawn of about two hundred acres centered on the Heart.

This isn't like a Changeling Freehold, which exists in a pocket dimension. A Caern is _real_, it's right there. You can point at it. You can drive from Tim Hortons, pick up a cup of coffee and walk to it. This means they are extremely vulnerable, and also usually very well defended.


Why do werewolves not have a morality scale, when, according to Laws of the Hunt, even Hunters and Ghouls do?

Interesting question. Werewolf is really the only oWoD game without a hard wired morality system of some sort. I'm glad it doesn't. The morality systems are generally used to indicate a degradation, a falling action. Vampires, Changelings and Wraiths are all very much on a clock; there are essential elements of their nature that are trying to destroy them.

In Werewolf, the element is all Role Playing based. The two internal struggles of Werewolf are against Despair and Corruption respectively. But Harano and Taint doesn't really have defined systems. I think this is a great thing, because it means there is no set number a player can look at and go, "I'm this close to existential despair, I better go to an art museum.". There's no reason your character should have an exact understanding of how close he is to breaking.

Also, 95% of you will be dead before you can even dream of going into Harano.

A werewolf is not a man with a wolf's soul possessing them. They ARE their beast. There is no alien element. Unlike Vampires and Changelings, which are possessed humans, or Wraiths who are the memories of people, Werewolves are their own best destiny. They don't need to worry about becoming something else, they are already are themselves. If that makes any sense.

Is it possible for the focus of a Werewolf game to not be on brutal combat and mega fatalities (all the time)? If so, how, and do you intend to make that happen?

Of course there is. There are four other Auspices besides the Ahroun (the Warrior Caste), and we've tried to make our story accommodating to each of them. ... and we only have two or three Ahrouns right now!

I feel like this answer could be really long, so I'm going to leave it at that for now and maybe come back with a longer answer when I get home tonight. But I will say that, to my satisfaction, this game has a no point been only about combat, and I'm really happy about that. We have leadership questions, a desperate struggle against impossible odds, prophecies, an enemy lurking in the shadows manipulating folks, families in crisis, organizational issues, puzzles, riddles, the general weirdness of living in the World of Darkness, and so much more I can't even talk about going on right now.

That being said, from a players point of view... you need to get into a pack! This is a team game, and you can only do some much while flying solo.

Npcs... where are they?

By our internal count, between antagonists, allies and those in-between, we're around a hundred established NPCs. But as we've stated before, this is a sandbox world. I know some people (Joe, Ben, etc) are really diving into the world and digging stuff up. I also know other people like to be more reactive than proactive. The cost of that is you have to wait for others to 'activate' NPCs for you.

Let me give an example,the Silent Strider Elder who just passed through town started off as a point of contact for Seta who could have been triggered for help in the first session, and had Seta lived could have become part of the local Sept. Soon afterward he came to the attention of a couple of our PCs who went looking for a Strider to perform Seta's funeral rites. Having been introduced to Buffalo, he decided to pop down and see how the Sept is doing on his way back to Libya. While here, he helps save the life of a Bone Gnawer NPC who will probably become a recurring character. If Ashmoore and the other Striders don't go to Toronto and 'activate' him, he never comes learns about the Sept here, and Chases Cars probably dies.

out of tribe, breed or aupsice gifts? how big a deal are they?

They're a pretty big deal. We are wary of allowing too much cross TBA gifts because we're worried about ceiling effects once everybody gets a couple hundred XP.

Basic mechanics. cross TBA gifts cost an xp more, as you'd expect. If learned from another Garou, there is an automatic point of Spirit Notoriety for both parties which cannot be lost until the spirits are appeased. Getting a spirit to teach a cross TBA gift is difficult, and will always involve a difficult quest. You can also force a spirit to teach you, if you think you've got the stones for it... but that is going to inflict a level of Spirit Notoriety that's going to be even more difficult to rid yourself of.

Lupus kinfolk, why don't they blow?

Once they're gone, there are no more Lupus. There are other rewards for a clever player having a pack of wolves at his beck and call.

big damn NPCs in near caerns?

I'm not sure what this is asking. Are their NPCs at the regional Caerns? You betcha!

does garou lore work like camarilla lore or politics?

Garou Lore will give the name, rank, and TBA of a member of the Garou nation with a successful chop.
Galliards also get a general idea of the character's accomplishments and reputation.

Can my character know about X event / Did x event happen in FW continuity?

As a standing policy, we will bend over backwards to not contradict events that happened IRL before the year 2004 (When Frozen Queen started). Everything you can dig up while researching local history will stand as part of the game world.

Now whether it's a rumor/fact/urban legend is something negotiable. But we will never deny the in game existence of any source of weird history about the region.

The works of Mason Winfield are a great start for those who want to know about the weird history of the region. Shadows of the Western Door is practically a source book for any serious gamer in this region. Basically, if you find something cool in local history/folklore that interests you, or helps you resolve an outstanding mystery or plotline, absolutely bring it right into Falling Waters. We are totally cool with it. We try really hard to not contradict local history ourselves, and we're all research buffs anyways.

Events that occured after the OWBN family got kicking here in Buffalo are a bit more dicey and you should confirm with staff what you've discovered before bringing it in.

Do we know of them (Regional NPCs)? who are they in the local area?

If you want to know more, please consult your local Galliard! (I don't want to give anything away that hasn't been found out IC yet on this)

Is there 'Falling Waters/Local Area' lore in this game?

Yes. Regional/Western Door Lore.

[Jason Pontecello]

Can you define "caern" as well as its parts?

[John Duval]

Why do werewolves not have a morality scale, when, according to Laws of the Hunt, even Hunters and Ghouls do?

[Guest]

Is it possible for the focus of a Werewolf game to not be on brutal combat and mega fatalities (all the time)? If so, how, and do you intend to make that happen?

[Guest]

We did have an entire scene last month revolve around riddle and finding our way past a series of Obsticles.

Charles

[Wishbone]

Absolutely. Combat's an important part of the game, but it's not the only part. Last month was the first time I've actually been in hand to hand combat. I'd say the majority of my scenes have been completely non-combat in nature.

[Sewer Pipe]

Npcs... where are they?

[Sewer Pipe]

out of tribe, breed or aupsice gifts? how big a deal are they?

Lupus kinfolk, why don't they blow?

Chiminage or 'when simply handing over gnosis is slacking'

big damn NPCs in near caerns?

does garou lore work like camarilla lore or politics?

[Sewer Pipe]

"I'm not sure what this is asking. Are their NPCs at the regional Caerns? You betcha!"

Do we know of them? who are they in the local area?

Is there 'Falling Waters/Local Area' lore in this game?

[John Duval]

What is the exact purpose to the Heart of the Caern? There are numerous threads where there are people simply...there. Is it a place for spiritual focus and meditation? Should you only be there if you're a Theurge or the Sept Alpha? Or does it have some function, kind of like an Elysium site, as a gathering place?

[Billy Singer]

Parts of a caern are described in Laws of the Wild, p. 201-202. To summarize, the Heart is the spiritual center of a caern, where the gauntlet is zero. It is a sacred space, and people generally only enter it to perform powerful rituals, or to step sideways if they can't do it elsewhere for some reason (i.e. out of gnosis). Near the Heart (but not in it) is an assembly area, used for socialization: formal (e.g. moots & challenges) and informal (e.g. BSing, councils of war, classes for cubs). In just about every thread here, people should have been gathering in the assembly area, where there's a firepit for the moot fire, probably some benches or picnic tables as soon as some PC brings some, etc.

Even spiritual focus and meditation would probably not be performed in the Heart as a matter of course. The Heart is too important for that sort of thing. Kind of the way that in an Xian church, people praying privately (not during a service) do it in the pews or in a space dedicated to that function, they don't generally just march right up to the altar and do it there.

[Jason Pontecello]

Yes but given the options on the forum, it seems the best place to post something that is Near the Heart.

[John Duval]

I'm in favor of a Near the Heart section.

[Admin (Mtal Pnym)]

just post in the meeting grounds like everyone else has been

[John Duval]

Oh, hey.....how did I miss that? Is that new?

[Admin (Mtal Pnym)]

How could you have possibly missed that

[Bane-breaker]

Is there a possibility of a map existing of the caern for OOC use? I know not a lot of us are familiar with the Falls, and it would be beneficial to pinpoint where certain events happen/ed.

[Stbrian]

Good idea. Maps maps maps.

[Guest]

Well sooner or latter I think some of us are going to have to break down and hike up to the falls. I will have to see about getting my Camera and Camera Binoculars working so I can take Pictures if I can physicaly make the hike.

[Stbrian]

The hike along the waterline from the Falls down through Devil's Hole is a really beautiful trek.

[Guest]

Yes but I think its even longer then from the road to the Eternal Flame. And Its been well over a millenium since I hiked along the Niagara River below the Falls. I was thinking more of a ride up the river in a speed boat in the early summer.

[Stbrian]

Get on the Jet Boat. Jet boat is intense. Jet boat is totally not ruining the tranquility of the place. Jet boat is your friend. Jet Boat.

[John Duval]

I'm pretty sure we all automatically know the language of the garou by transforming the first time, right? Can we additionally read and write the runes for it automatically? Is the language of the spirits a gift, or something anyone can learn with the help of a Theurge and/or spirit?

[Guest]

Garou Runes was something that I thought came with Either Garou Lore and or Possibly a Linguistic skill of its own? Possibly Both ??? But honestly I am not sure.


Spirit Speech is a Basic Gift - You can learn it however it is restricted normally and you will need a spirit and theurge to learn it one that you have seriously sucked up to ahead of time.

[Billy Singer]

But the spoken Garou language does come "automatically" and can be used to communicate with Garou that you do not otherwise share a language with. For instance, Lupus don't necessarily know English.

[Wishbone]

...and those who do know English don't necessarily know it well. Wishbone has never spoken in English in the presence of most members of the sept.

[John Duval]

About purchasing rites. (Quoted from Laws of the Wild, Revised, page 173)

"New Rite or Ritual: Two Experience for Basic, four Experience for Intermediate and six Experience for Advanced Rites. (Note: Rites and rituals only cost Experience if they are not readily available to a character during game play. In that case, they only require time.)"

Is this stating that if we learn a rite from another PC, or possibly an NPC we have regular contact with, it doesn't cost xp? If so, what is the restriction on how many rites we can learn in that case (or rather, what's stopping us from just spamming all our rites with each other in a month or so)?

[Stbrian]

The text quoted from Laws of the Wild is correct. Rites cost xp only when purchased from npcs.

[John Duval]

I seem to recall seeing people using Basic (Rite of Cleansing) and Intermediate (Rite of the Totem) rites, but LotW states you can't have basic rites until Rank 2 and Intermediate until Rank 4. The Rite of Caern Creation, even, is an Advanced, requiring a Rank 5. Was there some way around that restriction, or are we house-ruling you can have access to rites the same level as you have access to gifts?

[Stbrian]

Hmm... Sounds like I need to check the book again. We've been running it based on levels in the ritual ability, not rank. I will feel very very stupid if it turns out we all misread this.

[Wishbone]

According to the descriptions of the various ranks, you're not supposed to learn those rites until that rank. I've never seen a Garou LARP that enforced it rigidly. I assumed that was the case here.

Note that, while the descriptions of the ranks say that Intermediate rites aren't normally available until Athro, the Rites background says the following:

"With three traits in Rites, you have knowledge of a level three rite, or a level one and level two rites, or even three level one rites. Rites can be learned through the teachings of a mentor with a specific rite. Though it is not unheard of for a Garou elder to teach a student a very powerful rite (as rank is not a necessary factor of rite progression), it would necessitate a very in-depth explanation."


Relevant parts are bolded. While Garou normally won't teach Intermediate or Advanced rites to anyone lower ranked than an Athro, rank is NOT necessary to learn them--it's just not normal.

[John Duval]

So, effectively, the elder shouldn't have much of a problem if they know the rite is necessary, and the youngin' trying to learn the rite isn't a tool?

((Waiting for the go-ahead before I jump in on the rite-learning threads.))

[Stbrian]

Sigh, still at work, I want to do a review of the lit and how other games handle this, it might be a few days before I'm comfortable making a final ruling on this.

I recommend not holding on the thread though, it's a good change for RP either way.

/This is a big deal. It's going to piss some folks off if we have to change this, and I recognize that.

[Wishbone]

Well, if the rank descriptions trump the rules that say rank isn't needed, we almost need to start over.


1. We don't have a Caern, just for starters.
2. We also have no fetishes, and won't until someone makes Athro at least (and then finds someone who can teach them the rite.)
3. None of us are in packs. Rite of the Totem is Intermediate.

Other problems I see:


4. If the rank descriptions take precedence, then the Rites background is lying when it says a character can start with a level 3 rite.

5. If the rank descriptions take precedence, then it's impossible for a starting character to ever take the Rites background at all, since Basic rites aren't available until you hit Fostern.



Just some points to ponder. (I won't deny that I'm one of the people who would be hit hardest by a ruling to the contrary--but I honestly think it would be basically impossible to reconcile with the storyline thus far established.)

[Stbrian]

Exactly, without Rituals, Werewolf doesn't really even work as a LARP. They are that important. But I don't want to make a final ruling on this until I see how other games handle this.

[Billy Singer]

Need page numbers for rulebook citations. As to why we can't just spam-teach each other, pg. 151: "[A student] must also spend at least three days studying a minor rite, one week for a Basic Rite, three weeks for an Intermediate Rite or five weeks for an Advanced Rite."

[Stbrian]

I'm going to be honest. I'm absurdly busy this week, and probably next week too.

People cite things, and once I've seen citations, I'll make a ruling. Iggy, I know you go around other boards, can you get a feeling on this one?

[Wishbone]

LotW, page 90: "With three traits in Rites, you have knowledge of a level-three rite, or a level-one and level-two rites or even three level-one rites." (Establishes that a character can start with knowledge of higher-level rites.)

LotW, page 90: "Rites can be learned through the teachings of a mentor with a specific rite. Though it is not unheard of for a Garou elder to teach a student a very powerful rite (as Rank is not a necessary factor of rite progression), it would necessitate a very in-depth explanation."
(Clearly states that Rank is not necessary for rite progression.)

LotW, page 151: "Characters can begin play knowing rites with the Rites background." (Clearly establishes that beginning characters can have rites, thereby contradicting the rank description which says that Basic rites aren't available until Fostern.)


(Conclusion: The only way to reconcile all of the rules in the book is to say that characters cannot NORMALLY learn rituals unsuited to their rank, but the Rites background is an exception to this general rule. This ruling would be consistent with the rules as written, and would not necessitate massive rewriting of the past six months of gameplay, although a few of us might have to lose some intermediate and advanced rituals to bring us down to a level in keeping with our Rites background. I completely sympathize with being busy, Brian, but until we have some sort of ruling on this, I don't see how we can do ANYTHING game-related.)

[Stbrian]

Provisional ruling:

LotW is as poorly written as any other WW book. Can someone provide the page number from LotW with the offending passage so I can cite it? Unless I see compelling arguments from other games, I'm sticking with how we've been running it. With the following clarification. :

If you lack the rank requirement as listed in LotW in pages 180-184, an ST is within their rights to adjudicate a rituals challenge as failed, even if the chops were passed.

Rationale: The spirits can tell you to go away if you don't have the social status to force them to comply. This also creates a level of unpredictability with rituals which we're not entirely uncomfortable with. Gifts should work every time, Rituals should have the element of 'will this even work?' to them.

[John Duval]

Pages 180 to 184 discuss what each rank can do, has access to, what they mean, trait caps, and so on.

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