Ranking - Caps or Curve?

As our game matures, one thing we want to avoid is growing top-heavy with higher ranked Garou blocking the roads of advancement for everybody else. At the same time, Some characters deserve to be rewarded for their hard work by ranking up.

Four possibilities:
(a) We do nothing. Let the IC situation develop as it may. Renown may be 'curved' for the whole group to slow down inflation in particuarly adventurous months, but otherwise folks are left to develop as they will.

+ Fits into our no house rules approach. Is the most fair to all players.
- We're going to have way too many folks at the top of the food chain really quickly.

(b) The Rank Clock
- Must wait 4 Months from Rank 1 Challenge -> 2
- Must wait 8 Months from Rank 2 Challenge -> 3
- Must wait 16 Months from Rank 3 Challenge -> 4
- Must wait 24 Months from Rank 4 Challenge -> 5

+ Simple, easy to keep track of, provides tough road any character could conceivably walk.
- The clock is very artificed. I know there are ways to rules lawyer this. Four years from Rank 1 -> 5 is either appropriate or horse shit, depending who you talk to.

(c) Xeno's clock.
Temp renown is multiplied by a factor that reduces renown gained per level ( a possible system : Temp renown is multiplied by the inverse of the rank before being applied to sheets, for example, a rank 3 would received 1/3 renown, a rank four 1/4, etc.

+ It works, and is nearly invisible to the player.
- It is unfair. I mean, it really is.

(d) Caps.
(with a floor of one)
There can only be 1 Rank 5 per forty active characters.
There can only be 1 Rank 4 per twenty active characters
There can only be 1 Rank 3 per ten active characters

+ There are always a suitable number of high ranked characters
- Oh the back-biting this would cause.

I think a cap would work better on a per-auspice level, rather than game-wide. That will balance out any tendency for certain auspices to gain renown faster. It also provides a metagaming balancing factor- right now there are a boatload of theurges, so someone generating a new character might think "I'll never get promoted as a theurge. But there aren't many galliards right now!" A similar function exists in Camarilla games, where there can be only one primogen per clan, so someone that wants political advancement will join a clan with few members.

Of course, in the Cam situation, it's only important to those that want political power. In a werewolf game, your access to gifts is limited in a way that vampiric disciplines are not.

So perhaps only cap rank 4 and 5? So everyone, given time, can get intermediate gifts, but only a talented few can get advanced?

Some good stuff to think about there. What are other folks thinking?

I'm not entirely sure which approach I think would work best. One thing I do want to make sure we never get to is the situation that seems to prevail in a lot of Vampire LARPS--"Hi, welcome to the game, there's absolutely nothing cool for you to do because every niche is filled by a character vastly more powerful than you are, but, hey, I think the Toreador are looking for a janitor!"

Every character should have a chance to make their mark. Every character should have an opportunity to become a big damn hero. Not every character will make it, but they should have the opportunity to try.

That said: I'm really not sure about the rank clock approach. Let's keep in mind that, unlike Vampire, Garou characters never reach a point where they're almost impossible to kill. In fact, the higher rank you are, the more insanely dangerous the opponents you're likely to face. I'm not sure we're going to have many characters (if any) last for four years.

Now, there's a temptation to say, "That's okay--we can have a lot of Adren and Athros and almost no Elders, just like vampires tend to have a lot of 8th gens and very few lower than that!" The problem, of course, is that those 8th gens aren't restricted to Basic and Intermediate disciplines. It's not that every character should be throwing Advanced gifts around...but I'm also not sure that running the game for four years before any character even has the possibility of picking up an Advanced gift is a great thing, either. (And keep in mind--that's assuming that those leading-edge characters don't get killed off in the meantime.)

Ben - That really touches on my personal distaste for the Clock. I know other OWBN games use it, so it should be an option, but...

On the other hand, I feel like there are a couple of us who would really benefit unfairly from certain systems, just because we got such a big head-start. It would be pretty hugely hypocritical, for instance, if I were to advocate making it super-tough to get a rank I've already gotten under less-stringent rules.

The Fostern merit becomes a HUGE headstart under certain of these systems. For example, with the clock, it shaves a minimum of 4 months off of advancement time...and there's absolutely nothing saying that the Garou JUST became a fostern, so it's entirely possible that he could challenge for Rank 3 within 4-5 months of starting the character.

Now, there's actually a cap built into the Werewolf system, but it's a subtle one. If you look at the Rank information, all Garou beyond a certain rank are required to fill a Sept position. If there's not one available, they can't advance.

Given the size of the game right now, the cap numbers make me cringe--we're going to have one Rank 4, and that's about it. I certainly hope we get more players, but it's going to suck if, say, Ashmoore hits Rank 4 a month before Sewer Pipe is ready to challenge, or I hit Rank 4 a month before Ashmoore, and then the other player is just out of luck.

I prefer the clock method, although it is completely arbitrary. It spreads out the anxious chase for renown that people seem to have. If I know I am not going to rank for months, I am not going to power-grind the way some people do - I'll do things more like my character and focus on RP rather than grinding renown (though I already have been ignoring renown). If it is consistent with other games, I like that as well since I am always a fan of my powers and continuity working the same across games - it eliminates weird questions like why my PC reached rank 5 in a year but the most important garou in OWBN are stuck at rank 3 for multiple years. I already think our game is growing in power a bit quick considering we just got into the network. It also makes that Fostern merit worthwhile and the sacrifice of 5 of you 7 points of merits more meaningful. That might also make concepts that are cliath or cub to start a bit more interesting for the way they differ from the norm - since they can't just become as powerful as a Fostern as soon as possible.

I've always had a huge distaste for the renown system in werewolf largely because it is so unweildy. It forces certain actions, which I would think would be good since it would force people to act like werewolves/in-genre, except many of them are totally fabricated and exploited by players for renown growth. Give good advice? "Stay off drugs." (What, I gave the advice?) Defeating a wyrm threat? Well there is an endless supply of NPCs the STs can generate if you gather a war party to kill generic banes. But... how is THAT worth renown when you are really just calling the STs out -> "Either give me free rank/renown or kill my PC in this pointless battle? Which is it gonna be, punk." I'm sure there are several other examples.

Player caps don't work, especially if people become inactive or if that player becomes inactive. I want to like that idea since I think it brings an interesting dynamic but we already break the cap rules you've proposed. =P I do sorta like Xeno's cap since I was considering a similar system in the hypothetical world I would start a garou larp. Instead, I just did that you lose X renown per month from your total gains where X is your current rank. It still produces problems though.

I sent a proposal badly worded most likely to Brian about this awhile ago.

I Like a system that is a combination of of some of the proposals.

1. Take your Rank subtract [-2] that is the penalty you receive any reknown awards. If your killing baby bane swarms as a rank 3 Ahroun you better get them all, without being harmed or without another Garou being harmed or heck they need to be using Toxic or Silver attacks. Same with the Theurge sitting in the Caern cranking out Talens every month same old same old. You only get the reward for the Fetish's. Galliards telling a tale at the moot... It better be a very good one. Giving good advice your and Adren or Athro thats your job.

2. Increase the cost of a right of acomplishment # Temps = 1 Perm Reknown.
2a. Sliding Scale 10 Temps = 1 Perm Reknown for Cliaths maybe 15 for fostern,
20 for Adren and 25 for Athro...???
2b. Get the Galliards involved Reknown was supposed to gained and recognized
by a galliard telling the tale of your deeds at moot. If you dont have a
Story told at moot about your actions increase the Cost of # of Temp = 1
Perm Reknown.

3. Sooner or latter somebody has to fail a rank challenge you actually loose Perm Reknown down to that necessary to retain your current rank. Also Sooner or latter we need to start using punishment rites on people for some actions.

A Combination of the above plans and just plane common sense about well Ive been a Fostern for 3 weeks but heck that last quest qualified me for Adren who do I challenge.

Now.... the Draw Backs those of us who have enought reknown for Athro and have not yet gained Adren we will need to refund some of our Permanent Reknown. And yes I know if we adopt this I have to hide from Krispy who's job I just made much more difficult.

Mo' simpler is mo' bettah.

Yes.

Whatever the plan ends up, I'd prefer it to be as concise as possible.

I agree Simpler is usually better but Im just throwing things out things we considered when we agreed that Bill shouldnt have gone from Cub to Legend in a bit over 24 months.

I know my proposal is Muey Complexico.... But its advantage is the players wont be able to understand it so the ST can do what they want

We should should get the Galliards involved and/or the sliding scale for automatic roll over would be best. Rite of Accomplishment only works when a galliards of at least the same rank (or sept eldest) agrees is enough, all parties should put it in their reports.

Add (Rank * Rank) to the number of renown you need to receive a Rite of Accomplishment, and limit Rite of Accomplish to one dot of Renown per player per moon cycle. No need to do lots of math, just add a one-line note on each sheet saying "You require X temporary renown to benefit from a Rite of Accomplishment" and you're done until that person gains rank. That should be enough to slow renown gain for us to play effectively, and create a drastic gap between higher ranks that doesn't feel artificial like a hard clock or hard gap. I also agree with Todd that a Gallaird of the current Rank or higher should be needed for that Rite of Accomplishment (or because we have a lack of such ranked Galliards the Rite need's the Alpha's okay), just for the sake of spirit propriety.

Ben's comment on Adren needing to fill a Sept position is pretty spot-on, but there are lots of references to Elders that don't have Sept positions. And I personally think that's okay. As an Elder, if you aren't in a Sept position you're playing a different sort of game. You're training others of your Auspice and Tribe (NPC as well as PC), you're searching for lost Cubs and Caerns and Fetishes and Totems, you're in an Elder Questing pack, you're playing with the network and proxying your sheet all over. Having Advanced Gifts is necessary for you to play at that level, and that's okay. Having an entire Sept at Elder level is stupid, but we never will, because there will always be Garou in the Sept that are not PCs. Elders will find them, or attract them to join, or they'll marry one of our Kinfolk, or they'll First Change and be inducted and our reports will include lesson plans as often as they include murdering banes. That's still RP and it's still fun, it's just a different style than what we have now, so why are we fretting? Worst case, Brian and Krisp roll dice for Tribe and Auspice and use a random name generator and Yahoo Astrology to describe their personalities and there's barely any work involved for them to manage these hypothetical NPCs, we the players as Elders are writing what we have them doing and telling each other stories about what the Fostern did the other day. I do it already as Skippy, there's no reason we can't do it for NPCs and enjoy the experience and spend the rest of our time on epic quests, is there? So let's not even have a cap and let our game be what it ends up being, and I think it will be fun.

Ben's comment on Adren needing to fill a Sept position. The spirits baring anyone from advancing over Adren would be a limit in and of itself.

There no problem with this there plenty of sept potions that remain unfilled. And when we add in eldest tribe or auspects, there are plenty of unofficial one that can be filled.

There are some players whose character has more than one who should give up one if someone would like it. Players should try to retain the sept position over the eldest position. If someone has eldest it should count if the regulatory show up to the elders council, even if the post states that they are there to listen to what is being talked about.

The white wolf books do tend not to mention who is the eldest of an auspect or tribe in a caern, so we have room for some more elders.

I am liking the accomplishment tweaks. There are some good ideas here.

Skippy wrote:
Ben's comment on Adren needing to fill a Sept position is pretty spot-on, but there are lots of references to Elders that don't have Sept positions. And I personally think that's okay. As an Elder, if you aren't in a Sept position you're playing a different sort of game. You're training others of your Auspice and Tribe (NPC as well as PC), you're searching for lost Cubs and Caerns and Fetishes and Totems, you're in an Elder Questing pack, you're playing with the network and proxying your sheet all over.

Sure--but you can bet that they held Sept positions in getting to that level. They didn't go from Adren to Elder playing that game, and that's something I think we need to be mindful of.

There aren't as many Sept positions that really qualify as people might think: Master of Rite, Master of Challenge, Warder, Sept leader, elder of auspice, elder of tribe, or elder of breed. That's it. By the book, an Athro who can't fill one of these positions can't advance to Elder.

I'd like to see that enforced, because it means people can't just sit back and passively rank up without actively getting involved in the story.

Ben that is 5 plus 5 auspects plus 12 tribes plus 3 breeds. 25 Elder positions that qualify for a character to advance to elder, that is more the enough. The ST just need to enforce this.

We don't need to enforce a darn thing, that's Genre, that's up to you guys.

Bob MacCoy wrote:Ben that is 5 plus 5 auspects plus 12 tribes plus 3 breeds. 25 Elder positions that qualify for a character to advance to elder, that is more the enough. The ST just need to enforce this.

...and any one character qualifies for eight (or less) of those. It doesn't matter much if "Elder Shadowlord," "Elder Lupus," and "Elder Philodox" are up for grabs if you're a Child of Gaia Homid Ragabash. It won't be impossible for players to get an elder position, but I don't think it'll be as easy as all that. It certainly shouldn't be a matter of simply passing it off to another character; they should have to earn it through a proper challenge, even if the player who currently has it would rather pass it on. (That said, I'd be more than happy to be challenged for Elder Lupus!)

(Oh, I really would, but I wrote a Cub)

As Eldest Galliard, Talesinger, Caller of the Wyld, Den Mother/Skippy Sitter I fully support training someone else to fill oh at least a few of these positions.


That being said I am glad to see a consensus towards something needs to be done even if we all have widely varrying Idea's on how to accomplish that.

Yeah. That's why I want to keep this conversation going until we can all get on the same page... probably finish up with an St meeting at the start of next session.

Unlike most rules, we're pretty much pot committed once we make a ruling.

As far as I am aware we never chose eldest tribe or auspects. We could have some by default.

Oh we choose our Elders.... When we first returned to the Sept we asked for everyone who was a Fostern to attend a meeting. That Group sort of became the Seniors [Elders] council. There was only competition for Eldest Ragabash [2x Fosterns] they agreed to split the job, and we didnt have a Fostern Ahroun so Sewer Pipe organized a fight for who would be Boss Ahroun.

Eldest Tribe well we tried to find Fostern from the Tribes who were not also Eldest in something else.

But lots of stuff interfered and we ended up at one point with Everyone but Bob from our Pack serving on that Council along with Maxim and the Other Pack Leaders. It wasnt a good sign.

Lots of changes since then.

Only 9 votes?

I truly hate the idea of a Rank Clock. I think there is entirely too little leeway in such a system for a character that proves themselves invaluable quickly to progress. One of the cooler parts of the genre to me is that sometimes age and time have NOTHING to do with advancement.

I like the current system. Especially since it fits in with our No House Rules idea.

If we're gonna start adding House Rules, I suggest we start with broken-ass Desperate Strength before moving on to things that are less of an issue, like Rank.

-John

i'm inclined to agree with John, that's why I don't personally don't like the clock *at all*, but there has to be some break on turbo-ranking. I'm still evolving my opinion on this one... and player input really helps.

Futhermore....

I guess one question is: is turbo-ranking definitely going to be a problem? And can we handle it through roleplaying?

I have the renown for Athro. I have a member of my tribe I could challenge for Athro. There's absolutely nothing stopping me from challenging for Athro. I would also fully expect that if I challenge for Athro right now, it's going to be seen as presumptuous, and I'm going to get slapped down for it with an incredibly difficult (if not impossible) rank challenge. That's how elders are supposed to deal with presumptuous young Garou who try to treat ranks as stepping stones.

On the other hand, there are certain exceptional situations where an immediate elevation in Rank is appropriate. If a Fostern beats back a BSD incursion single-handedly, then that could well be worthy of an elevation to Adren, regardless of whether however-many months have elapsed since he made Fostern.

Or if a Cliath defeats 20 werebears singlehandedly, while trying to convince them that he is a friend, and asking them to stop, he clearly deserves to be an Adren. He's shown Wisdom, Honor, and Glory in spades.

There are reasons that people get jumped up in rank in Garou society, just as there are reasons people skip grades in school, and get promoted at work.

I think any system that doesn't reflect that aspect of Society is a poor system.

-John

*yawn*

I lead the defense on building this caern. I got one rank out of it. In my backstory, i lead the defense of saving a caern, and got to rank 1. This SHOULD be hard. Fire Dragon hard.

Or 20 Werebears hard.

No arguments about difficulty, Iggy. Being jumped up rank should be difficult, but not impossible. If we have a defined system, based on time in rank, it becomes impossible.

To prove I speak from experience:

I am a subcoord for the Vampire Assamite Clan. I mention this because The Assamite Genre coordinators have a policy that is very similar to what is being suggested here. We have 5 ranks, and a time-frame has been set on each rank before one can petition for the next.

It is the BIGGEST pain in the ass about the entire job. No players are ever happy with it. They eventually do something that all of Genre says should get them rank, they petition for it, and they get denied because they haven't been at their rank for long enough. No STs are ever happy with it either, because they have to track their PC's time in rank independently and make sure to provide RP opportunities for them to rank up when the time comes, while making sure to NOT provide opportunities to rank up BEFORE they reach the right time.

Add in the fact that, just as in werewolf, access to powers is directly dependent upon Rank, and you get a whole mess of players who are really pissed off that despite the fact that they killed 40 infernalists (or 20 werebears), they can't get their shiny new Thaumaturgy (or intermediate gifts).

-John

*shrug* That is true.. but just because you did it, doesn't mean you aren't awarded the renown. just don't lose it till you can rank again. I think the poll is pretty decisive on what the players would like.

You're just really all about those Werebears John.

I disagree. Less than half the game has voted (or ever will), and less than half of those voted for the winning selection.

A poll like this has to be taken at session to really give an accurate indication.

John

Stbrian wrote:You're just really all about those Werebears John.

Just an arbitrary example, I swear. ;-D

Nothing self-serving in it at all...

John

*shrug* I think if a poll of 50% of population gave these results, it is pretty good. but if you wanna run this buy people at the game, do your thing. Also, you have to survive to get rank. Keep running.

Sewer Pipe wrote:*shrug* I think if a poll of 50% of population gave these results, it is pretty good. but if you wanna run this buy people at the game, do your thing. Also, you have to survive to get rank. Keep running.

Touche, and I intend to.

I think this is a good topic for an ST meeting during a big session. I don't think it's enough of an issue to require immediate action of any sort.

Just my thoughts.

John

sewerpipeisstrongestthereis.

uh... we do in fact like the clock.

check the poll? plus it would put us in line with the majority of games that have hard caps on how fast you can rank.

Yes. +1 to Iggy.

Also, while I enjoy the game. 12 people is pretty much more than half our attendance. =(

There might be room for flexibility, even with the clock. For instance: we could adopt the timeframes of the clock and make it clear that if someone attempts to challenge prior to that period of time, it is going to be considered a serious violation of tradition. They had better have a truly extraordinary justification, and even so, they are likely to be assigned a rank challenge ranging from "Very difficult" to "Impossible."

That would let us adopt those timeframes as our standard, while still maintaining a certain amount of flexibility and staying true to canon. (Uppity Garou prematurely challenge for rank now and then, and are frequently slapped down with insurmountable challenges.)

My feelings aren't all that strong in any direction, to be honest. I don't plan to challenge for rank any time soon. I just want to make sure we don't lock ourselves into a system where we stagnate.

If you challenge me for rank, and i don't think you should rank, 'impossible' becomes 'painfully impossible'

YoungFrankIsStrongestThereIs.

WishboneIsTakingBetsOnTheOutcome.

I am willing to bet you won't find anyone willing to bet against the one you are betting on. *Big thumb up*

I didn't catch the name of the player, but the Red Talon Lupus Ahroun of Ragey Death that was here for Western New York by Night mentioned his game runs the clock. Also....I vaguely recall hearing he was an ST for that game.