If we go CFC, what does it look like immediately?

Brief post, want to bounce ideas and thoughts.

----->If<----- we go CFC, we'll need to break OWBN continuity (obviously), and also seriously depower toons during the transitional period.  Here's how I'm currently thinking (Thinking, this is really just spitballing) this could work...

We skip forward an amount of time.  Folks seem to think five years is a good number.  So current continuity would become the events of 2006-2008.  We slide everything back.  The Caern continues to grow, and most of the current plotlines slide to the background, to either be picked up again (if we can still run them), or set aside (if we can't).  A lot of the IC enviroment would be adjusted, for instance some totems would need to be cut, and NPCs removed, etc.

Then sheets can either be depowered back to around the thirty XP range (prob what we'd be looking at if we go), elevated to NPC status, or just killed off screen, that would depend what individual players think works best for their individual stories.  Many of you can just say, " I was off on an Umbral Quest " for the last few years if your XP is of a level where you're comfortable respecing with CFC/MES rules.

Players have been very clear that they don't want to go back to being a bunch of cubs and cliaths struggling to run a Sept... since we just spent the last two years doing that.  This option lets us do that and have a functioning sept with a pretty well understood back story to start.

*goes back to work on schtuff*

Sounds good to me.  I have thirty or forty character concepts I'm dying to try out anyway.  Wishbone's all yours as an NPC, if we go this route and you want him.

Well you already have Works for Food stuck in a hole somewhere to do with as you wish and my Current Toon has maybe 22 Exp beyond the 25 you give to starting Metis Im fine with the plan but then My character did reset in June anyway !?!   Other people have several hundred exp to shave off in a much more painful manner.

Charles

yeah.  not sure how I'd deal with a cutback/reset.  I have little to no interest in retreading my last year's work.    losing wishbone to NPC status would probably screw my plans up just as bad.   let me know what is decided since any move to join these new orgs will probably require a lot of retooling on my part.  Have to decide if it's worth the effort with a new school year starting.  Thanks.

Ditto. Skipping forward 5 years to kill storylines and suddenly being depowered  or removed makes things seem like a whole new game. Seems like this is just killing off the game as it was. If you are going to do you minds of well just force everyone to roll new toons and start a whole new background (not that I am in favor of that).

This is especially since it look almost that whole year to make it to Fostern, to just lose my last years efforts because of some ORG switch. I would rather see us go troupe then go to the CFC and see things reset.

Patch wrote:yeah.  not sure how I'd deal with a cutback/reset.  I have little to no interest in retreading my last year's work.    losing wishbone to NPC status would probably screw my plans up just as bad.   let me know what is decided since any move to join these new orgs will probably require a lot of retooling on my part.  Have to decide if it's worth the effort with a new school year starting.  Thanks.

But with CFC, we get a solid set of rules. This would include things like a rank clock, as well less uber powerful characters. You get 6XP a month. No more no less. Everyone will be starting on the same page. This also includes those in the larger group as well. I know there are some that do not network but for those who do this is a great thing. For those who don't you get a clear set of rules, and to play in a game where the larger plot is built by those same people who designed the game.

I don't know what you mean by rank clock besides they said it is 6 months between ranks, which sort of happens on its own anyhow. As I said took me almost a year to get Rank 2.
I just don't like this basic reset as it took me this long to have even a half of an idea what was going on in the game.

I am not concerned with future XP (Some games play with much less XP) as suddenly losing all but 30 XP off my existing sheet, or just getting outright my character removed; Even worst most of the Sept being likely removed and seemingly all plots being reset (not that I was involved in many). This would be basically a reset for the whole game.

Network play does nothing for me personally to justify destroying the game as it is (I know others like it).

The rank clock is just that. You can only challenge every 6 months.

As far as a reset goes: I personally have no issues. Even if I was still playing Reily, I would feel the same way. I think this move means a lot of positive changes for the game. Yes it will require some work on all our parts to get our characters back up to the old level. But I think it is worth it.

I don't see why this ORG is more postive then the last ORG? Except the RSO thing. Not like my charcater is uber powerful or anything and isn't about that (only been around a year). Seems we just all mostly have to reset and basically starting over and I don't like that.

Well, as far as ongoing plots go, I see this as a chance to get more people more involved.  Let's be real here: a lot of the big plots have disproportionately revolved around just a few characters.  It's one of the reasons I'll be content to retire Wishbone, even though I enjoy the character; I never intended for him to be a plot-hog, but things sort of worked out that way.

Really, as far as game-wide plots, it seems like we're in a pretty good place for a fast-forward.  The Ten plot got more or less resolved very abruptly; Oshagonondagie can sit under his hill for as long as needed.  This is a chance for a fresh start in that area, and for other people to get in on the ground floor of the "big story," rather than having to rely on exposition from a few long-term characters who might or might not tell them everything they need to know.

Pack plots are another matter; some of the packs have a lot going on.  On the other hand, other packs are having trouble even maintaining stable membership, let along have a clear vision going forward.  Again, I see this as a chance to sit down and build cohesive packs that make sense.

There's more discussion of this on the Falling Waters Facebook Group to be honest.

We have the same amount of autonomy that we had before: If we were a vampire game, I'd argue more... but since we're Garou, I think it's unchanged.

We have an actual corporate backer; Who are quick to respond; Professional and polite; Provide help for running events; and are generally superior to the former org and not having an org at all.

We get twice as many Garou games in network, a guaranteed number of events, national events, game of the months, and apocolyptic events. Those are major functions. While they might not appeal to everyone, they definitely add something for many players.

There are tertiary benefits - insofar as when we join anyone interested in branching out to CFC Cam/Nwod/etc, has the ability to do so more easily.

The Universal House rules should honestly be called... The Rules. They come from the designers, they have dealt with tons of conceivable problems and have changed the system. When they release more material it is cannon because they're writing it. When they release new rules in general they are adopting them because, again, they wrote them.

The advantages, I believe are many. I'm just scratching the surface.

What it means to players, I think, is this: You will get all the extra social stuff you want from an org game as well as continuing to allow us the sort of big werewolf game we've been running.

And to top it off their directors and legal get back to us about RSOs and things are committed to protecting your interests as a player. Also, since they are a real thing, they offer a shield of liability that OWBN simply cannot. Which is pretty great. The onus on keeping malefactors or RSOs out of the org and protecting the players is on them. So even, should they fail, it is a failing on them - not you as a player. Which, at the end of the day, is exactly what OWBN believes and - I believe - will move forward with.

Also, no more quasilegal/illegal genre packets or issues of that nature.

We're splitting the baby on a lot of things. And yes, being depowered does suck - but you need to look at that as a roleplaying challenge. Sometimes your character dies, or doesn't go in a direction you want, or is aged half a century. You roll with that. You make it part of your story and personal pathos.

If dots/xp/rank are coming first for players, then.... I don't have much to say to that. Those things are distant competitors to the point of the game. Your personal story, the larger story you're all building, and the gravitas you get from your journey in it.

We'll be discussing this more and more in the coming week or two.

B

there's a difference between having a character die or leave due to plot,  and having things handwaved.  *shrug*  one is much more of a morale killer in my mind.    I have always preferred troupe either way, with or without a reset.  Is there a time we can expect a decision to be made?  I am trying to decide if I should spend my time writing this month's report and was trying to see if I had time to wait for a decision before my schedule gets busy again.

Well part of what we're discussing is maximum happiness and utility between the many types of players.

I abhore painting with a broad brush regarding tastes of a game, if not the goals.

So, when we have options on the table, you - the players - will be the first to know.

Yes but things you have spent XP (some of them) are part of your story. Gift Chimages you spent time and XP on etc. This is not something happened IC, but an artifical thing so people can go from one ORG to another ORG. All these ORG bennies mean little to nothing to me.

Its not even about future XP, I play happily in some games that give XP in the 2 to 3 XP a month range.

I would like to know also, so I can just stop putting the effort in if things are going to be reset next month.

There will be a story element to this change. I'm rewriting on the fly, talking to folks about ideas, etc.

All I can say for now.

I am one of the ones losing the most exp, history, and flat out boss powers. I can crush damn near anything in 1 v 1 combast with my point spread. I would be reduced to a pale shadow of the current SP.

I am still doing it.

Because story.

Will we at least have full control over what we lose off our sheet if we keep our characters? Will we lose Rank?

Where are these CFC character creation rules?

Yes. Maybe. And I posted it in an earlier thread. Its the Garou rules addendum. :-)

In MES' defense, some of us might even GAIN Rank. If, say, you were close to ranking before the switch, and you were approved for a rank higher than your current rank, you might well find that the STs give you that new rank, to allow for us to keep an even distribution of PCs and allow for a smoother running Caern.

John

That makes no sense..why would anyone gain rank?

Because Rank approvals are, in some ways, based on Membership Class, so if, for example, you were a Cliath who was close to Fostern and the STs negotiated for a higher Membership Class that would allow you to play a Fostern, you might find they're amenable to having you reach Fostern as a part of the same plot that reduces the ranks of some other players. It would largely depend on how the plot itself works out.

My point is just that not every change to the game will necessarily be negative.

Sewer Pipe wrote:I am one of the ones losing the most exp, history, and flat out boss powers. I can crush damn near anything in 1 v 1 combast with my point spread. I would be reduced to a pale shadow of the current SP.

I am still doing it.

Because story.

I feel pretty much the same as Iggy on this point.  If we make this switch, I have to retire both of my currently active characters.  I still think the benefits outweigh the costs.

Wishbone wrote:


I feel pretty much the same as Iggy on this point.  If we make this switch, I have to retire both of my currently active characters.  I still think the benefits outweigh the costs.

The benefits are highly dependent upon how much you interact with anything outside the local game.   I am likely in the minority, but there is no "upside" to joining a different org for me as a player.

I'm not sure I agree with you on that, Ed.  I'm actually pretty close to where you are on that: I do very little outside of our home game, and what I have done outside has been very recent.  I've never been heavily invested in OWBN, and to be honest, I felt that joining it created some problems (like the power differential between our game and other org games, for example.)

I do see some benefits to MES, though.  I very much like the consistency of their rules; I like the fact that it's a network that seems much closer to our game in terms of power level and a generally conservative philosophy.  Even though I, personally, don't feel a burning need to be part of a network, it seems like being part of one does a generally better job of making everyone happy.

Look at it this way: we have players who want to do network-related stuff, and players who don't want to do network-related stuff.  If we're part of a network, the players who want to do that stuff can, and those of us who don't can just focus on the local game--just as we have here.  On the other hand, if we're not part of a network, those of us who want to focus on the local game can, but those who want network-related play are out of luck.  One way, everyone can get the kind of play they desire; the other way, only one group of players can.

So, you don't like Roleplay or Plot? Because, uh, both get provided to the game by an organization. This happens in the form of visitors who come and provide new people to RP with, and national plot that can affect our game for us to interact with. Hell, the information that your fellow players bring back from visiting other games / event games results in RP you wouldn't otherwise have.

John

Ben: this does not really provide a style of play I like.  Having to go to various sources for world info instead of just sts, resetting the game every few years,  allowing more potent constructs in exchange for ooc behaviors like blood drives or newsletters . . .  All are better served by troupe than org imo.  I don't really have time or inclination for  the first and third, and the second undermines much of what makes the game enjoyable to me.  

Just explaining that the org does not provide for all groups in a way troupe does not.  I admit I may be in the minority, but org is not win-win for me.

This is something I'd like to address as diplomatically as possible - because I've heard multiple different versions of.

"If we leave, I'm leaving"
"If we go CFC, I'm leaving"
"If we don't go CFC, I'm leaving"


While I appreciate the gravitas of these statements, they do not benefit the discussion at all.

Everyone who knows me will attest to how apeshit I go if I'm being silenced or peoples right to speak their mind is taken away from them. That's not what I'm after.

What I am after is getting a good sense of what the game state would optimally be.

So if you're thinking of saying something along those lines... consider our position for a moment and maybe try to reframe or rephrase...

"MES has me wondering about how they do their renown.. I think it's a major problem": THAT is something that can be discussed.

If you're not interested in CFC try and synthesize what exactly the problem is.... one of the things I'm hearing is a sense that there are now more cooks in the kitchen. That isn't the case... before anything involving counsel involved dozens - if not hundreds - of people arguing. Krispy can explain how CM's and Counsel work, or rather... don't... if you need that spelled out. So you're not going to coords and counsels and such.. those days are over, one way or the other.

So let's try and focus on what we want/don't want and like or dislike.

And remember, everything you say is up here... so we don't need to keep repeating ourselves.

B.

I have a major issue with org resets as a whole, I like the history and the depth that longevity of story provides. I like the feeling of having a character that grows stupidly powerful and rules before I inevitably decide his story is complete and he jumps off a thematically appropriate cliff. I don't like the cliff coming for the character when it doesn't really make sense. I don't like the Apocalypse in my games, I like the eternal fear of such happening as a RP motivation.

CFC would greatly take away from my ability to tell the stories I want to tell and would leave me with poorly resolved characters. There is no greater sin in a larp than weak endings because of a reset/forced event/hand of god/random chance.

AdamMarx wrote:I have a major issue with org resets as a whole, I like the history and the depth that longevity of story provides. I like the feeling of having a character that grows stupidly powerful and rules before I inevitably decide his story is complete and he jumps off a thematically appropriate cliff. I don't like the cliff coming for the character when it doesn't really make sense. I don't like the Apocalypse in my games, I like the eternal fear of such happening as a RP motivation.

CFC would greatly take away from my ability to tell the stories I want to tell and would leave me with poorly resolved characters. There is no greater sin in a larp than weak endings because of a reset/forced event/hand of god/random chance.

I have to say I agree.

Many of us are facing basically the end of the characters for no real reason besides what the STs can justify the reset to change ORGs. The same thing will happen every few years via the CFC. The only difference is we will have more warning next time.

AdamMarx wrote:I have a major issue with org resets as a whole, I like the history and the depth that longevity of story provides. I like the feeling of having a character that grows stupidly powerful and rules before I inevitably decide his story is complete and he jumps off a thematically appropriate cliff.

Yeah, because people with 1000 XP sheets just step down... To quote a private conversation; Anya. Selene Lazarion. Granted, these are Vamp characters, but they're a perfect example. Sheets like that are utterly terrifying for new players and small, fresh sheets, and as everyone around them dies, these sheets amass more power. As gamers, we tend to want to hold onto our super speshul powerz!!! because that means we're on top. who doesn't like being on top?

Thats why resets exist. So you dont have the same person in power for ten freaking years without having to NPC fiat.bb or whole game v. 1 to remove them.

There are times when certian characters need to be removed to "make room" but that should be controlled by STs and not a total "death clock" for all.

I think the thing is that we're dealing with very different mentalities.  In my case, I can't imagine wanting to play the same character for more than five years.  I think that's an artifact of being a writer; I have a whole slew of characters bouncing around in my head that I want to try, and I also want the stories I tell to have a clear arc, with a beginning, middle, and end.  "And then I continued to grow more powerful indefinitely" just isn't satisfying for me.

So the question is: is there a solution that will satisfy everyone?  I'm honestly not sure there is.

I don't think so either, but people are free to speak their minds - especially in a constructive way.

Do I think we're going to have 100% retention regardless of what we do? No. Different people take different stances. But we make a game for the multitude of players and for the majority of the players. It's just what has to happen.

We can't shape games and stories and even OOC decisions around small minorities of players - and that goes in both directions. So let's see what sort of compromises we CAN come up with and move from there.

B.

So is the problem because your character's story is ending or because you aren't playing your character anymore.  With the resets, I do see changes, but I never saw anywhere that it means your character needs to die, just that you need to make a new one.  Old PCs can become NPCs, either staying in the Caern or travelling abroad.  As for being able to play that character again, though he would be an NPC, and thus I don't think he would be recieving the proper XP and such, as he is an NPC, I remebered CFC giving prestige for playing an NPC for a session, so you put down your Adrien/Athro character for a new character and maybe if that NPC is in the Caern and needed to be involved in some way for the STs. (Wishbone has a Mystical Quest only you Cliath's should embark on!), Ben might put down his character so the genuine feel is there.  He may not gain full XP (I think he can still get XP for reports and forums maybe), but he'd gain prestige.