renown rumble in the jungle.

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renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Sewer Pipe on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:12 am

In this corner, the new york sensation, the ayatollah of rock, the sultan of scissors, the prince of paper, the one, the only, tpo of sewer pipe, Iggy!

And in the other corner, anyone silly enough to engage him in a debate on: "no longer dividing glory renown"

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Post  Rides the Nights Wind on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:04 am

Ok ,for the sake of a good arguement....

what is your proposal and Individual Kills System.....  and how do you propose someone from stealing the kill?  

What Im saying is so many battles result in multipule people hitting or affecting a creature.  Do only kills count... or if the COG Calms 15 Rage out of the Enemy BSD casuing it to loose the Wolf do they get the Kill or does the Person who lands the last blow ???

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Sewer Pipe on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:30 am

My proposal is simple. I am not suggesting a kill system, the game explicitly states that garou all share the glory for their actions. this is a team game, a team system. Simply stop dividing the glory based on your rank.

For those who don't know, when you reach rank 3 what ever temp renown you get is divided by 4. that is irksome for the other auspices... but for Ahrouns and galliards, it is game killing.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  STBucky on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:15 pm

We are considering something along these lines...

I think we three actually talked about this in front of Charles Cabin: IN tabletop the overwhelming majority of your time is spent... well... going out and doing adventures. From module-esque Werewolf stuff to monster bashing etc. So Glory, in TT, is more plentiful. Downtime stuff for Tabletops is pretty much the heart and soul of MET LARPS...

The focus of session is a chance to interact and RP, and while that does include a fair amount of comabt, it is comparatively very small. In LARP you get much more wisdom, honor, and social interaction with every other werewolf in the sept. Those character are usually NPCs you barely talk to in Tabletop games. A game, mind you, where you - by definition - have your own ST all night lol.

So... yes, it is an issue but we are not unaware of it and we are working towards a balanced solution to solve it.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Sewer Pipe on Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:49 pm

I just gave you a balanced solution. Stop dividing Glory. It is rare, it is more risky to get, it is far more time intensive and we need tons of it. Stop slicing it up. Bam. Done.

Two sessions ago I saved half the sept. No exagerration. I facedown a BSD pack of rank 3's or better after the majority of people around me got dropped, while healing ashmoore, dealing 9 damage, checking on my pack, saving mischa and the nannehei, eating silver and gifts along the way. It was epic, it was badass, it was probably the third most important battle i have been in in my Garou career, short only building a friggin caern and slaying a dragon.

it got me 3 temp glory.

That's it.

I would have to be in a battle that epic every month till *thinks* next April to rank, assuming i didnt lose any glory along the way and i got rites of accomplishment at the perfect time every time. The likelihood of any ahroun or galliard surviving that many epic battles to get that much glory? Not much above zero. Compare that to the other auspices much easier time grinding renown by doing the kind of downtime actions that take no effort (I guard the caern in my report) and require no risk (I learn a ritual), and that are even rewarded in their very selves (wait, i get renown for making talens and fetishes?!... I GET renown, which makes me awesomer, by making a magic item that any larper would already be doing?).... pose that versus the implausibility of gaining glory in the downtime? and since it is relegated to glory gaining in the actual game in long combat scenes? we have to spend every session not only risking our character, but missing the roleplaying if we wanna rank in a year.

Stop dividing the far and awary hardest and riskiest renown to get.

Problem solved.... and maybe people will wanna play one of the least played, underpowered and hardest/riskiest auspices.

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Post  Rides the Nights Wind on Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:29 pm

Ok....

In some ways I agree with what Iggy just said I know I was stuck 5 Temp Glory short of ranking for like 2 months possibly 3 and I was in one or two fights even if some of them were small things that only get you 2 or 3 Glory each session.

On the Other Hand there has to be a reasonable way to slow down Rank advancement.   Because when I was an ST in another Game I watched Tyr Grim Jaws [Bills Get of Fenris] go effectively from Cub to Elder in about 18 Months and to Legend in about another 6.   I wont say he didnt leave several body parts lying about behind along the way.  But he did do it.   My Bone Gnawer Ahroun was right behind him until I got drafted into being an ST.

I know you get double Reknown if the Galliards tell your story but even then you are still loosing half of your reknown.   There has to be a difference in the long run if you make a Talen you gain 1 temp wisdom but if you make a dozen it should still only be 1 temp wisdom.   And if it become routine like killing little banes or cranking out Talens after rank three its just something expected of you and not really reknown worthy any more..

But the question is how to get a balanced system.   I think we need to beat the Galliards More and I was trying to do that as Alpha and Eldest Galliard with Works for Food.  I like what Randy is trying to do to get people to tell there stories to a Galliard.

The problem is getting the system to work from session to session without poor over worked and under paid Krisp killing us for making his life a night mare.   I will have to think alot more on this before I can make a suggestion perhaps even more caffine.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Father Thomas Rogers on Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:54 pm

I have some suggestions on making it a bit more balanced, but it does require more ST involvement within the structure of this.
If the ST's would like to change or discuss anything on that I would rather talk to them directly than open a can of worms as the renown should be more of a secret on how to get it than a checklist of to do stuff.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  STBucky on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:54 pm

I've spoken to many people about this... and gone over. We're still in discussions as to what to do.

For now, if you get 3-4 temp glory... get a Galliard to sing about it. Because it really isn't 3, it's 6. If it's 5 it's a whole point.... so we're not going down that path of really turboing renown without doing any division.

Something additive might come out of these discussions...

In any event, we'll talk about it next session or something. But for right now, we're going to keep working on this from the staff's side and if anything changes we'll let you know.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Wishbone on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:58 pm

There's also always the possibility of researching new gifts or rites.  Say, a Galliard gift called "Spin the Story" which lets you swap temporary renown from one category to another (maybe at 2 for 1 or something...)

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Sewer Pipe on Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:58 pm

How do the other games handle this?

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  STBucky on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:04 pm

I'd be interested in hearing some novel ideas.. but rank clocking is ... just.... aweful. counting kills is pretty aweful too...

The reason we are doing it this way was because we looked at some other systems and this was the least terrible we could do lol...

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Sewer Pipe on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:18 pm

Kill counting is dumb. Garou are pack creatures, and while killing blows are worth something to some tribes (get) they shouldn't be the end all for renown.

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Post  Rides the Nights Wind on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:21 pm

Good we all agree Kill Counting is Bad *shoots the critter Pipe was just about to finish off and does a happy dance*

I think well Im still wrapping my head around it but yea I really do agree with James/ Father Rhodes that keeping a little bit of mystery in the system is appropriate.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Sewer Pipe on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:26 pm

Shockingly I disagree with that entirely. In every other way, we know ooc the mechanics... and btw, I just looked up all the renown ups and downs. They are in the books.

That aside, there are just not many ways to gain glory outside of in game hours long combat scenes where you risk your pc.
and that is legit, glory should involve risk.
but since it is harder, rarer and riskier, we shouldn't be quartering the value of it, especially when two auspices need it so damn badly.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Firewall on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:25 am

hmm think I just figured it out just sit at fostern banking the renown till you have enough for say elder then start challenging . This way the renown isn't in the toilet once ya hit rank three.
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*evil grin*

Post  Rides the Nights Wind on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:54 am

Ok... loose the challenge and your reknown resets to that of the rank below the one your were challenging for....

Part of the Solution might be to make sure the Challenges are Rank Appropriate I know Wishbone risked death on his Athro Challenge and sometimes a Challenge can be nearly suicidal like for Elder and or Legend.

But to do this we need to make damn sure that the Galliards and Philodox's are doing their jobs... hmmmm ok I think Philodox(s) plural might not be appropriate quite yet....

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Sewer Pipe on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:10 am

Rank challenges sucking are a whole seperate issue.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  STBucky on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:33 am

There has been a certain disparity... Sometimes they're kind of softballed, other times they've been extreme.. but that plays into garou politics as well.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Sewer Pipe on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:35 am

I have not been overwhelmed.

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Wishbone on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:07 pm

One thing is that it would be helpful to clarify what constitutes a "threat."  The brown book says to treat each threat as a single encounter, the example given being that four BSDs is one very powerful foe as opposed to four strong foes.

Well and good.

However, at least some people are under the impression that ALL of the opponents faced in a session are being treated as a single "threat"--which is not, I would argue, supported by the book, and seriously handicaps those who need Glory by effectively restricting them to a single award per session no matter what, while honor and wisdom can come from many sources.

Could an ST clarify what constitutes a "threat?"  Can an Ahroun get multiple glory awards from multiple battles in one session?

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Alex Cage on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:20 am

Could there be something that Ahrouns could do to gain glory in the down time? Board Scenes? Perhaps going Bane hunting?

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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  Bob MacCoy on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:20 pm

I have 2 ideas to toss out to everyone.  Either one should solve this problem.

1) Track Fractional points of Temporary Renown And Print it on Character sheets.  A rank 3 Ahroun gets 1/3 of a temporary point of glory for engaging in a challenge.  The ahroun player will get to see this on the character sheet the next month.

This will let Iggy, other Ahrouns and Galliards see progress every month.

OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR...OR

2) Have different amounts of required temporary renown for gaining a permanent point of renown. Use the following Chart:

RankMinimum needed to gain a Permanent pointAutomatic Rollover
Cub1015
Cliath1015
Fostern2025
Adren3035
Athro4045
Elder5055



Either system keeps the ST current system to slow down ranking without making it look like you are stagnate in your progression towards the next rank.  It is slow but, you see it.
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Re: renown rumble in the jungle.

Post  STBucky on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:19 pm

Just going to drop something in regarding what Chris said, because I've seen it come up repeatedly.

As Ahroun, if there's a discussion about, ordering a pizza, who should do what, or just about anything you should be itching to fight over it. Getting into those brawls with one another is the 1 point glory grind you can most easily do in the downtime. Dueling with each other, training, that sort of thing is exactly what less-than-lethal fighting means.

There are definitely ways of grinding glory - while those fights aren't cumulative, neither are making talens. It's sort of a "Did you do this type of activity? Achievement unlocked." type of thing. Players seem averse to this sort of thing, but it's how Glory functions. So if someone wants pepperoni, and you want mushrooms and you're not sure if you've gotten into a fight this month..... fight it out.

Just saying.

Also, yes, Bane hunting/minor threat hunting is defintely something that can be done in the downtime. Glory is the riskiest renown to get... that's a fact... but part of the problem has been one of perception that there's no way to establish a baseline. An admittedly low one, but still a baseline.

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